rise up Rochester - Latest Comments in How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Ethan — Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:08:32 -0000

"LEGAL TENDER" means you must use it. Try paying your taxes in cattle or tobacco or even gold.

The gold standard is simply setting a rate of convertibility to a paper money. Yes it is true that if a government wanted to steal from it's citizens it could change the ratio for redemption or debase the currency, and this is in fact what has been done in the United States. The underlying value of the gold, however, will not change, it is as near a constant as possible. The only thing that has changed is the value of the paper money. Thus the argument for a FIXED gold standard not corruptible by government fiat. They only thing that could change the value of money in a fixed gold standard would be the destruction or creation of gold. To create gold requires real work not a printing press, therefore gold itself represents physical labor. Money after all, in any form, is simply used for exchange. You are paid money in exchange for your work and that could be in almost any form. Gold is perfect for this since it is real and much smaller than say, a cow or a bushel of wheat. and it is easily used for exchange. And gold can not be arbitrarily created the way paper money is.

To comment on your view that the government is efficient, since when? They government is the most wasteful spender in the nation. The reason being, that those working within the government are not spending their own money and have no reason to use it in any semblance of an efficient manner.

To quote Milton Friedman, Nobel prize winning economist:
"The bureaucrats spend someone else's money on someone else. Only human kindness, not the much stronger and more dependable spur of self-interest, assures that they will spend the money in the way most beneficial to the recipients. Hence the wastefulness and ineffectiveness of the spending."

"Voluntary gifts aside, you can spend someone else's money only by taking it away as government does. The use of force is therefore at the very heart of the welfare state--a bad means that tends to corrupt the good ends. That is also the reason why the welfare state threatens our freedom so seriously."

May I suggest some reading for you, Milton and Rose Friedman's book Free to Choose. It is a comprehensive look at the role of government in our society, the problems with that role, and solutions to it.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Common Sense — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:34:27 -0000

Round 2:

1) You present two arguments: compulsory education and freedom.

a) The educational system is not compulsory. You are free to home school. If you so choose, you are free to inject yourself with monkey semen as a method of education.

b) Freedom - I agree that there are freedoms. No real contentions here.

2) http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/GoldStandard...
Again, this is how the gold standard worked. An arbitrary fixed conversion ratio was set. Don't believe me, read that. Don't believe that, you can make up your own history.

3) The government should be involved in services that can not provide economic profits fairly and/or for the general welfare of society. Hence, roads, fire departments, and snow plows. You can do all those privately if you choose, but it sure costs a lot more.

4) I quote from my dollar bill: "THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS PUBLIC AND PRIVATE". No where does it say you HAVE to accept it. You can choose not to. Just like how there are places that won't take credit cards or checks.

5) I don't understand your comment, although I think you're making my point. What I care about is efficiency. The gov'ts running of many of these functions creates the greatest net effect with the least cost due to economies of scale. If you choose not to use the economies of scale, you will pay more. This of course, is your choice.

Finally, on your topic of liberty, let's not confuse the issue. The gov't has created an efficient method through which economic liberty can be achieved, but you choose not to. Well you can. The fact that others won't accept your form of currency is also THEIR choice.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

riseuprochester — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 11:06:41 -0000

Let's debunk your debunking:

1) How do you defend compulsory anything in a country that is supposed to be free? No, a compulsory educational system ensures that the youth learns what their government wants them to learn. Period.

2) Did you know the first economic treatise ever written viewed debasing the money as a mortal sin? What is the moral basis for changing the value of money? Gold isn't arbitrary because the money supply can't contract, nor can it be expanded too quickly.

3) Why not just have the government make everything? After all, the computer company could break your computer to sell you a new one.

4) You are forced to use it. That's why it's called legal tender. You have to accept dollars for payments of debts.

5) Sure, it's not free to use it, but it's also not free to not use it. How is that fair?

Liberty? I don't think you have the slightest idea what that means. You can't have personal liberty without economic liberty.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Common Sense — Wed, 05 Nov 2008 00:56:26 -0000

I don't know where to begin to tell you how wrong you are.

Let's start with your brief answers:

1) A compulsory educational system ensures children learn scientific facts that have been tested and categorized. Once you have a basic knowledge, you can then branch out and do the "liberal" thing of pursuing your own education. To use the classic metaphor, when you don't know you're in a cave, you'll just be teaching yourself that your world is dark and damp.

2) A gold standard, or any other standard, is no less arbitrary than a note held by the faith of the backing entity. To create money, the ratio of $1 to some amount of gold was just adjusted to increase or decrease the money supply.

3) Non-profit governmental goods ensure we prevent agency-principal issues, such as when we entrust the fire department to prevent fires, but they instead set fires in order to be paid to quench them.

4) You are not forced to use US currency. You are in fact free to use any type of currency or trade good you wish to use. However, the most EFFICIENT system of transaction is based upon a common type of currency. I'm certain some amount of gold dust can buy you milk at any grocery store.

5) The US Postal System is a quasi-governmental entity, and you are free to not use it. However, if you enjoy cheap mailings, I would suggest using them.

The government's purpose, as defined by the Constitution, is to establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity.

When you can find a profitable way of doing all those things, please get back to me.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Sean Liebel — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:36:38 -0000

Yes but when the people refuse to rise up against this it tells the government that their actions are fine

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Sean Liebel — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:33:50 -0000

The people need to do more of the debating than the actual candidates running for president. For this creates more honest candidates and ones with greater integrity which goes along with governments being unchecked. Although I agree with you but I think that the people have fallen behind greatly when it comes to caring for their government and what it has been able to do without care. For instance a CFR and Federal Reserve would never have been able to come about if the people were more adamant about criminals in our land or of skeptical forces out to aid in the destruction of both our sovereignty and of our economic freedom. Much of the fault is on us as well remember that.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Sean Liebel — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 11:29:12 -0000

With money though why would you want to subject your monetary supply to strictly coins like gold? Since gold is so scarce it can be taken up much faster by international bankers and central banks as seen with Fort Knox back in the 1970's. Fiat money is not bad for the economy of america if you can make it by your country as debt free and interest free on the sole agreement of trade or consent given by the people. Also paper is very plentiful and nowadays as opposed to the 1800's and 1700's can be recycled furthering more usage otherwise. Think of this. The money masters producer Bill Still speaks of this very same notion.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

riseuprochester — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 10:20:43 -0000

Thanks Matt, it's true. One of my International Relations Professor's favorite quotes is "The Sicilian Mafia is in the same business as the government: It sells protection from itself." - That's from a famous professor, but I forget his name. I think we may be reading his article and I'll try to write something about it.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

MDJ — Sun, 02 Nov 2008 04:47:15 -0000

It must be understood that government creates many of the problems to then offer the solution to those very same problems, which entails more government and more centralization of power. With this comes this evisceration of more freedoms. This is the Hegelian Dialectic at work. We must ask ourselves who most benefits from this. The people who run this system use SOCIALISM to consolidate power and control, while using carefully-crafted propaganda to mislead the public into believing it's for their benefit. We are lead to believe that government is the solution to many of the problems we see, when those problems were created by government intervention in the first place.

--Matt from Greece

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Ryan — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 19:13:12 -0000

Nice article Andrew, I think your approach here is much more effective in getting us to think than some of your other articles, which I've been more critical of. I would be eager to see you go into some specific issues, in depth, using economic concepts to explain alternatives or to justify how current solutions work.

I remember back in public finance looking into the topic of public schools for instance. If my memory is correct, we determined that there were both public and private aspects at play in the public school system; I was initially quite surprised by this conclusion. It was drawn as follows: Funding for public schooling is largely drawn from local sources (town property taxes). Most people working in Monroe County have a fair level of mobility, with cars or public transit you don't have to live in the same town you work in. Different towns within Monroe County have different budgets for schooling, you can choose to live in a town that reflects your preferences for funding of education.

http://www.monroecounty.gov/property-taxrates.php

All other variables aside now, does it seem astonishing that kids from the Brighton, Pittsford suburbs get a better education than kids in your average city school?

As for curriculum, this is something that tends to be more regulated. New York state sets standard requirements for a diploma and these standards are the same across the entire state. I went to a good public school and remember some of my regents courses being pitifully easy, yet these were the state's high standards. Should I, could I have benefitted from a more rigorous curiculum? Probably.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

riseuprochester — Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:35:37 -0000

I do agree with you Ethan. I ended the article on a rhetorical note because it gets people to think more critically. I also don't claim to know the right answers and hope that if more people ask these questions we can find them together.

Re: How Much Government Do We Need in Our Lives?

Ethan — Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:13:42 -0000

Well if you won't come to a conclusion I will. Liberty is far better than the alternative, the coercive force of government. Government in any form should be strictly limited. As history has shown us, government will grow and expand when left unchecked. Government is just a collection of individuals and when given the power to make decisions for you they will. If you don't want your neighbor making decisions for you, why would you want the government to?